Transcript
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Hi and thank you for giving your time to Unlimited Seating.
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I'm your host, sunila Samuel.
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Every episode, we bring to you a role model who shares her journey in an easy-flowing, candid conversation.
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We talk about early childhood influences, career choices and how they've navigated through biases and life in general to get to where they are at today.
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Through these conversations, unlimited Seating aims to inspire, educate and build a community that promotes and celebrates inclusion and diversity in a world where female leaders are still an exception and not the norm and not the norm.
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Hey, hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unlimited Seating.
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Very excited to introduce and talk to my guest today, pallavi Bhawmik.
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Pallavi is Managing Director, strategy and Consulting at Accenture.
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Pallavi has over two decades of techno-functional expertise in consulting and analytics, managing C-level relationships, global programs, business KPIs and best-in-class talent.
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Pallavi is based in Bangalore, india, with her husband, bisparoop, and teenage son, sparsh Pallavi.
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Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here on Unlimited Seating today.
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Thank you, Sunila.
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It's my pleasure to be here and thanks for having me on your podcast and looking forward to a candid conversation and making sure that it probably reaches a lot more like us part of Unlimited Seating audience, so looking forward to the next few minutes between us.
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Likewise, pallavi, I'm going to jump right in, excited to learn more about your career journey.
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We do have some similarities in that we went to the same B-school, based in Bangalore, which is where I grew up as well, so I know that you graduated as an engineer.
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What made you choose that path and maybe tell us a little bit growing up?
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Role models growing up were inspiration to the career path you chose.
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Yeah, happy to share.
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I grew up north in India and in a joint family the typical Indian household construct where three generations live together.
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We were with my paternal family but this is a maternal family also lived close by and I think a very big influence on my growing up years has been of both my grandmothers, the maternal and paternal.
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Both of them, I think, were a little ahead of their time.
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Both of them were in full-time jobs while managing the household as well as the children and then still excelling at that.
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So I think very early the concept of education, financial independence I think that came naturally from my grandmothers and I think that was an early force to say I need to do academically, I need to ensure a good academic qualification for myself.
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So I had a little bit of fascination towards hospitality industry.
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So while I was finishing school I wanted to be a part of that in a way.
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But I chose to get into engineering.
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I did well right Once I chose it, even though if I was thinking maybe hospitality is my calling.
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I did well and I think from there I didn't look back.
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So I suddenly got this love for technology and through my graduation even though I went for a B school, which kind of gave me a broader perspective.
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I always have this deep fascination for technology and how it can probably change the world and make it a better place.
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So that's how my career has been going.
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It started with big inspiration at home, but over the period of time there's been a lot of other inspiration which has guided me so far.
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And I noticed that you did your engineering and you decided to do your MBA with it right after.
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Any reason for that, pallavi, and do you think in hindsight, is that what you would do today?
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Is that something that you would advise today?
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I'm a little torn on that one till today.
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Right, there are pros and cons, right, I think the advantage that I had was I was pretty young when I went to B school.
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Right, you have the advantage of being fresh and not molded yet.
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Right, like I did my internships, mostly in FMCG, I had an open mind, saying I didn't have fixation, saying I previously worked here, I want to do this or this is how it works, so this is the function that I have a preference for.
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So from that way it was a clean slate and hence it made me open for a lot more internships, a lot more project opportunity, the career that I chose.
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But in hindsight I do feel that a few years of work experience probably gives the perspective to ask more out of the course.
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Right, while I was soaking in what was coming from the professors and from the curriculum and from the internships, I think if I had my little bit better perspective of my own, I would have been a little bit more demanding because I would have seen a little bit of workforce myself.
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So I would have probably brought some practical challenges to the fall.
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But I think it's not which one is the right one right, I think both are good.
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In hindsight, I think it was a good journey.
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Starting early allowed me to make a few mistakes early on in the career or mistakes or, you know, choices.
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I would say rather so I think I stick by.
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It was a good decision yeah, I'm with you on that.
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I think one of the things my dad said was we finished engineering and I was ready to start work.
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What he told me was if you start work, you might never want to come back and study, right, yeah, and I think that maybe he obviously knows me well, so I guess it's picking what you think works for you.
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Yeah, completely.
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I want to talk a little bit about your career journey, pallavi.
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You have, if I'm just looking at the organizations you've worked in and the different areas you've worked in you've gone through the CRM space, analytics, worked on strategy in that space, and then you move into those e-commerce as well, then progression through enterprise transformation when you were at Unilabor and currently into generative AI.
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I want to spend some time just exploring this journey that you've taken.
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Ai I want to spend some time just exploring this journey that you've taken.
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You feel like you've always gone into hey, what is coming up?
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What is the area of growth at that particular moment?
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So maybe I'll take you back to the start.
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How did you get that first initial career break and how did you move on from there into evolving and growing through all of the different spaces?
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Yeah, sure, and honestly, when I reflect back on my journey I find it a little bit chalk and cheese and sometimes it's difficult to run a thread through some of the choices that I've made, but I think in hindsight they have been great learning opportunities.
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So, other than a few smaller projects and internships that I did here and there, I think my first major job was with General Electric, which I joined as an analyst, business analyst and it's fresh out of B school entered.
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It was not by design but more like I joined General Electric but by by assignment.
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I got into analytics as part of the analytics COE and that's where my analytics journey started.
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As a lot of the listeners would know, financial services is where the analytics place is right.
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That's the sector where a lot of advancement happened early on, so two decades earlier, when analytics was just booming in.
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That's the place where a lot of advancement was happening.
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So I got some early exposure to analytics through GE.
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I used to work on credit cards portfolio, working with a lot of retailers like JCPenney, walmart, exxonmobil and a lot of others in that sector.
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I think what it did is because I was fresh out of B school, a marketing graduate, right, and here I was working on CRM campaigns, which is marketing, but with a dash of analytics.
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It started that journey of loving AI and analytics and data and finding patterns and finding insights and how data rich environments can lead to better marketing.
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So I think that was an evolution from a pure messaging, branding based marketing journey that I was bringing in from the internships and from the B school to a data driven marketing.
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So that's where my journey started and since then our next few moves are mostly in that space.
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How do you evolve from marketing to other disciplines of marketing communication, like analyst relations, press relations or something else, but still using a data-driven fashion?
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Social media like to be able to do that.
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I think the biggest transition that happened about five, six years later, which you mentioned about e-commerce, was again how the industry was moving right, like from a brick and mortar setup to.
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We started moving towards a digital setup and hence e-commerce started booming in and again even more data rich than before.
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So, naturally, I think it was an area of bigger opportunities where clients were investing a lot more right, so I gravitated towards that.
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But I think from beginning to e-commerce, it still had a theme to it right, it was all analytics, data, rich marketing, either brick and mortar or digital.
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One major shift that I made about a decade back was when I moved to Unilever right, because suddenly it was from a services company to product company and more of business function orientation than pure data and insights.
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And believer is called grooming ground, and I got to experience that firsthand right.
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It was like drinking from a fire hose in the beginning and you're on the deep end, thrown in at the deep end right in the very beginning.
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But the cross-functional rotation that I did obviously I entered basis marketing but then finance, supply chain and integration of all of those sales.
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I think that grew me as a better person and once I was confident that I probably have enough practitioners mindset, have had my hands dirty and that was probably a good segue to consulting, because what you've learned with one you can probably practice with many right and give back a little and take back a little.
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So that's when I moved to Accenture to become a consultant and consult a lot more c-level audience from our FMCG clients in both front office, which is marketing, sales, commerce, as well as in larger FMCG space.
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So there has been few threats, few conscious choices driven by how the market was evolving and how I wanted to reinvent myself.
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Interesting.
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I like how you've continued to learn, but you're also building that depth of expertise which may enable that move into consulting.
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And one thing that I did see in your profile, pallavi within the same organization, you took on new roles and as you continue to grow, either functionally or probably horizontally as well as you took on these roles, how did these opportunities come about?
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Was it you going and putting your name out for them?
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How, or was it you being pulled?
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How did that growth happen for you?
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yeah, I would credit this to a little bit of mentoring I received, uh, early on, where one of my mentors told me this concept called chessboard move for careers, which means that you don't just plan for the next move, you plan for the next one and possibly the half and after that as well, which?
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is a little bit vague in the head, but definitely the next two, I think.
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Uh, that has been the direction that I've been taking.
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So if I'm in a role, I have a very clear vision of what's next and a slightly vague vision of what's after that, and that probably gives me a direction.
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And then after that it has been about raising a lot of hands in a room, saying, if you vaguely hear something being mentioned and you raise a hand saying can I try my hand at that, putting your stake on the table, saying I try this, is it new?
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Right?
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Creating that sort of brand for yourself.
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Saying new areas, tough areas maybe, and they're looking for the right person for the role, at least get into the consideration set.
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After that things take their own course.
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But, knowing the direction, I want to traverse it.
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And then, once I know the direction, making myself visible and saying I'm ready to do it.
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And I think Unilever played a very crucial role in that because it really encourages this fail fast mindset and you know what will happen at the most right, it's a new area.
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So I think risk taking got to another level and hence I could raise my hand for very different roles which could have been a little risky in the career.
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It's a theme of actually being ready for when the opportunity comes, and I think what I'm hearing is when you're continuing to prepare yourself, like we say, in the off season, so when that opportunity comes and then but the piece of raising your hand is important and saying that, hey, can I be considered for it.
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And the preparation sometimes is on soft skills rather than domain skills, right?
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For example, if you want a role next which is very heavy on managing stakeholder relationships, right, and maybe the current role is a little bit heavy on delivering projects, right, how do you create that opportunity?
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Maybe through a lot of plus ones, community projects, other initiatives, initiatives.
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Yeah, I firmly believe it takes two to three years of doing something continuously to have a license to operate in that space.
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So I think where we want to go, we have to find an opportunity to practice it elsewhere, even if the current role doesn't allow.
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So I think that's what I've been consciously pursuing.
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Like I said, what does the next role need and how do I build that skill?
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If it's not part of my current role, do I take a side hustle to?
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be able to build that.
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I love it.
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And how important has feedback from, say, you talked about some mentors and others have?
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How do you probably look for that?
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Have you consciously gone looking for some feedback and inputs, and how much value has that been for you throughout your journey?
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I think I owe a lot to the coaches and mentors, I would say, and some of them are assigned formally by the organizations everybody invests these days, but I think the more informal coaches and mentors, which include some of my professors from B school till date, it's been because they've known me the longest right, and it also includes probably the last boss, because they've seen you the most recent, so know your caliber now right.
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So I've maintained that and I think one thing that I think coaches bring to the table is that they at least my coaches.
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They've worked on or whatever my strengths are.
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They'll know how I'll play on it, right.
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But they probably helped me identify some of my areas of improvement and work better towards that right.
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So I moved at a dual velocity right, play on your strengths, which I know how to do on my own, but the areas where I think that to get to the next level, I need a little bit of work.
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I think the coaches have helped me hone those skills and, from mentoring perspective, I think as the first principle of mentoring it, they listen to what I have to say and I think showing a mirror sometimes right, saying saying all good, you're doing very well, but it's gonna be a steep change from here onwards, right?
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Or this will come at a little bit of cost, right?
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Some roles, some advancements come at the cost of personal time, right?
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Or some stages in life need you to take a different velocity, right?
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So I think some of that mentoring from people who came before me and have seen more of the world has helped me make more informed choices.
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So I think, from mentoring perspective, it's been about making choices.
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From coaching perspective, it's been more about honing certain skills which maybe I would have avoided if I didn't have a coach at hand.
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So I think both of them have played a splendid role in my journey and I'm trying to give back in my own way, in small way, wherever I can right to my organization, because I think people who have good coaches and mentors have 2x chance of success than others.
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That's I fundamentally believe.
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Oh, that's a good way of looking at it.
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It's about making use of all of the opportunities that you have.
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I like how you're saying that you're at a place now where you're actively giving back as well, because you've learned and used all of the inputs that you've gotten from mentors and coaches.
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And how do you pay that forward?
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And I know when we first talked, you mentioned that you are the sponsor for the IND initiative at your organization, and I'm sure there's many other ways as well that you are giving back.
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So maybe here's a question for you, pallavi, which I got asked recently what are one or two things that women can do to support other women, to grow in the organization, to grow in the organization.
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I saw one TED talk once it's called the Missing 33% and it heavily influenced me.
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It's a short talk, but I think what it talks about is men and women are given equal opportunity for coaching, mentoring, grooming, right.
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What I felt is that women more often are poached on how to behave, how to be a good leader, how to be a good team player, how to be a good collaborator.
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They're often taught more on what I call softer skills, right, and women also are very conscious, I think, till today.
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How will they be perceived?
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Because that's traditionally how you're groomed.
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On the other hand, that's what the missing 33% talks about.
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The other gender is probably more groomed on delivering hard hand.
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That's what the missing 33 percent talks about.
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The other gender is probably more groomed on delivering hard business metrics right so maybe I can live with being a little less liked for a day.
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Right, if I am trying to lead my company through a transitional times, tough times, right, some tough decisions need to be taken and hence, probably likability is not the first thing that's on your mind, and it's more how do I create value for shareholders, for employees and everybody else?
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So I think that fundamental difference on emphasizing on soft skills over emphasizing on likability and presentability versus hard business metrics, I think that's something which I try to tell all the cohorts that I speak to and I think the successful leader should probably bring that to life.
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So there's no shortcut to success unless the metrics get delivered.
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Even in a non-profit scenario, there is certain metric to be achieved, number of people to be reached, right, the kind of quality of uplift, everything is quantifiable.
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So unless we deliver on quantifiable metrics, just alone being a better person, a smarter person, a better communicator is not enough.
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So that's been my philosophy and I've been propagating that that balance the two, not either or right.
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So that's what I've been trying to bring about in my organization as well.
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And the second thing I think I feel just a little bit related to coaching and mentoring is that you may want a little bit related to coaching and mentoring is that you may want a lot of people to coach and mentor you, but why should somebody do that, right, if you're not investing in yourself?
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No coach, no mentor, no boss, no leader is going to invest right.
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And what does it mean to be investable, Saying if you give a feedback, it's taken seriously?
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right.
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If you set a target target, an effort is made to move in that direction.
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If you do a joint plan, that like there is a action on it and there is a progress on it and then there is a regular discussion on it.
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So if I have to meet somebody midway, I think so, I say just plain, asking somebody 60 minutes in a month for a coaching, mentoring conversation could remain a paper exercise unless you make yourself really investable, which is when somebody was going to take deep interest and say, wow, she travels from here to here.
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Now let me take her from here to here or help her get from here to here.
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So I think those are the two things balancing soft and business skills and making yourself more investable is what I'm trying to bring about in my organization.
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Oh, I love that.
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A lot of food for thought there.
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I like this missing 33%.
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I'm going to go watch that TED talk and, as you were speaking, I think you're very right.
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At the end of the day, it's when you're being measured or appraised.
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You say, is this person going to deliver on what the business priorities are right for that period?
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So how to keep getting better at delivering, including all the soft skills that's required to deliver.
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But coaching it's almost like measuring what all is needed to go from one step to the next.
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I really like that.
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And how to keep staying investable, right.
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I think one of the things that you talked about was a specific area of focus one month, but then being able to come back, say in a couple of months, and say, hey, this is all what I've done, I've taken your input, this is all what I've done.
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Yeah, in the period, in the time since we last spoke and I think I'm starting to see this now what's next?
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Sometimes what happens is and I've noticed this as well you have a, say, coaching or mentoring dialogue with someone, but then two months later you're having the same conversation and by the third time, that's it.
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I don't know if this is worth my time.
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So I think that's really important for yourself as well as for anyone who you're probably mentoring or coaching.
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I love it.
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Love those two pieces of advice.
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Moving on to something that I always ask my guests Pallavi and you've had 20 years plus of a journey.
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You've grown and evolved.
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You have a teenage son as well, so I know balancing that is not always very easy.
00:20:36.324 --> 00:20:44.644
But through this period, pallavi, I'm sure you've had a couple of moments when things have not always gone your way right, some setbacks.
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Can you maybe share one particular instant when things have not always gone your way right?
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Some setbacks can you maybe share one particular instant when things have not always gone your way?
00:20:50.038 --> 00:20:51.682
It's been a bit of a low period.
00:20:51.682 --> 00:20:55.159
How did you come out of that particular situation?
00:20:55.882 --> 00:20:57.126
definitely in 20 years.
00:20:57.126 --> 00:21:15.414
There are a lot of ups and downs, right, even if you're not working in personal life also, but definitely at work, I think, and particularly generalizing it, as women, I think one of the biggest hill that we need to get over is motherhood, right, so it's the most pleasant time in life, it's a blessing, but it's also taxing, right.
00:21:15.414 --> 00:21:22.328
So I made a conscious decision that I wanted to take a bit of sabbatical and enjoy the early days of motherhood.
00:21:22.328 --> 00:21:29.898
So I took a planned 18-month sabbatical when I had my son and, trust me, the most wonderful time of my life ever.
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:39.349
It was when I started to think about going back to work, right, and then, because I had been away for a while, I had to look for a new role and get into it.
00:21:39.349 --> 00:21:43.184
I think I took a call, just it was when I left for maternity.
00:21:43.184 --> 00:21:49.759
I was leading a team right, it's a sizable team, about 30 people and I was still early career, just few years of experience behind me.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.803
I was leading a team right, it's a sizable team, about 30 people, and I was still early career, just a few years of experience behind me, but I had a team and was doing pretty well.
00:21:53.823 --> 00:22:08.236
Right when I took the maternity break, in my head I thought that it's a lot of work to lead a team, because it's not just getting the work done, it's about managing people, their careers, their aspirations, their aspirations.
00:22:08.236 --> 00:22:12.949
And I somehow thought that I should take an individual contributor role because it's going to give me more flexibility to work around my toddler.
00:22:12.949 --> 00:22:19.551
And after three, four months I realized that it was a mistake, right, and it's because I wouldn't.
00:22:19.551 --> 00:22:21.720
There was no way I would have known it without doing it.
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Because then I realized that, even though I was early career, I had probably had four, five years of experience by then, or even lesser, including the sabbatical, from very early on.
00:22:30.676 --> 00:22:39.390
I was probably better at leading and getting work done through a team or through a cohort rather than doing it on my own.
00:22:39.390 --> 00:22:49.188
So I probably never built some of those skills which are needed for individual contributors to be able to do a whole, whole deep analysis yourself, to be able to do a whole report yourself.
00:22:49.268 --> 00:22:50.890
Right, and I was suddenly struggling.
00:22:50.890 --> 00:23:12.903
Right with the help of, again, coaching, mentoring comes into place saying it, knowing that what are your skills, what are not your skills, accepting that probably I made a wrong choice and on the first opportunity, correct it and get into a role which played on my strengths, which was more about leading a program, like with a lot of people, not just because I was lacking certain skills but because I was good at that and it gave me better work-life balance.
00:23:12.903 --> 00:23:17.202
Then the individual contributor role, which was probably making me work till 4 am.
00:23:17.202 --> 00:23:22.625
So I think that's one instance and I have since then I've heard this from many right.
00:23:22.625 --> 00:23:27.372
It's one juncture at which you come back and decide now what right?
00:23:27.372 --> 00:23:33.180
Right, people who've been in sales roles, thriving there, say, oh, I should not do sales anymore because there'll be a lot of travel there right.
00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:42.355
I should probably not do this because there's going to be a lot of this there and the sort of pivot from our niche right, which was where we were very successful before that milestone.
00:23:42.355 --> 00:23:45.021
It works for some, it doesn't work for some.
00:23:45.021 --> 00:23:46.104
In my case it didn't work.
00:23:46.104 --> 00:23:48.950
I had to quickly pivot back to where I was good at right.
00:23:48.950 --> 00:23:50.353
But yeah, I think that was one.
00:23:50.353 --> 00:24:02.856
It was very stressful already young mother right on top of that, I was probably not coping up at work, but I think we fixed it over six months with the support of my organization I think a lot of people can resonate with that experience.
00:24:02.957 --> 00:24:04.199
I'm sure it was not easy.
00:24:04.199 --> 00:24:18.727
There's a lot of guilt and then, coupled with that, if you're not feeling that you are or you've taken on something that is not in your area of expertise or strength, is you're struggling and you're, if you might, it's easy to feel like you're going under.
00:24:18.727 --> 00:24:27.705
So I know you just said that in a couple of minutes, but it must have been very painful, as you're going through it.
00:24:27.746 --> 00:24:35.845
Kudos to you and your organization for getting you to the right place, right, saying that, hey, this is where you are, uh, successful.
00:24:35.845 --> 00:24:40.223
You've had proven success leading the team and delivering.
00:24:40.223 --> 00:24:40.786
I love it.
00:24:40.786 --> 00:24:41.468
Follow me, I think.
00:24:41.468 --> 00:24:44.517
Maybe one more question before I move to the final one.
00:24:44.517 --> 00:24:51.249
Again one maybe a piece of advice for women who are continuing to try and grow in their career.
00:24:51.249 --> 00:24:53.001
What do you think they need to focus on?
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And maybe I'll also ask you what do you think is next for you?
00:24:56.384 --> 00:24:59.592
How are you thinking about the next steps for yourself?
00:25:00.815 --> 00:25:06.559
Yeah, so I think on the first part we spoke a little bit like about how to make yourself investable.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:18.469
Don't underestimate coaching and mentoring, networking I think I don't know if we touched on networking earlier, but I think building those networks because you never know what could open a door.
00:25:18.469 --> 00:25:22.372
Right, and traditionally I've seen women shy from networking.
00:25:22.372 --> 00:25:24.054
It's considered a bad word.
00:25:24.054 --> 00:25:24.733
I don't know why.
00:25:24.733 --> 00:25:26.516
Right, it's a networking event.
00:25:26.516 --> 00:25:29.262
People go there only to network is is.
00:25:29.262 --> 00:25:32.757
There's a little bit of a negative connotation to to that.
00:25:32.757 --> 00:25:34.160
But I wonder why?
