Career Transformations, Women in Leadership, and the Future of Work

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi and thank you for giving your time to Unlimited Seating. I'm your host, sanila Samuel. Every episode, we bring to you a role model who shares her journey in an easy, flowing, candid conversation. We talk about early childhood influences, career choices and how they've navigated through biases and life in general to get to where they are at today. Through these conversations, unlimited Seating aims to inspire, educate and build a community that promotes and celebrates inclusion and diversity in a world where female leaders are still an exception and not the norm. Hi everyone and welcome Welcome to a new episode of Unlimited Seating. Another episode and a special guest, and I'm very excited to introduce my guest today, simone Lawrence. Simone is a certified executive coach and the co-founder of the Ameliorit Group, a Dubai-based coaching and people development consultancy, working with the teams leaders and women in the workplace. Simone has over 20 years of experience developing people, leading HR, learning and development operations, sales, business development and fundraising teams across a variety of industries, spanning both the corporate and NGO sectors. She describes herself as a career chameleon turned executive coach and is the queen of reinvention. Simone has lived and worked in numerous countries, including nearly two decades in the Middle East, and is now based in tropical far north Queensland in Australia, with her husband and two daughters. And I'm even more excited that for the first time, unlimited Seating is recording in person and I have Simone with me here in studio in Dubai. Simone, I know it's been a long journey and you've had a very busy week and I'm so happy that you took the time to be with us here on Unlimited Seating today.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Thank you, Sunila. It's my absolute pleasure to be here with you today.

Speaker 1: 2:02

I know you've recovered from the jet lag and, like I said, you've had a busy week and I'm looking forward to learning all about what you're doing with the Amelie Group and a lot more other stuff. But such a journey, simone operations, hr, sales, business development Always like to start out with just taking a step back with my guest and seeing where it all started out. How did you have your initial career influences? Who are your role models? Did you always know that you would be setting out to do all of what you have achieved till date? So let me take you back and ask you, simone, what was the beginning of the journey like? Who were your influences and role models?

Speaker 2: 2:46

Thanks, sunila. It's really interesting to reflect on how I started out, because it was not a traditional path. I've taken a very nonlinear approach to my career development and I did everything a little bit backwards. It was good, and it's taken me a long time to get comfortable with sharing my full story because it is non-traditional and now I recognize that it's actually part of what's helped to make me successful. So I actually left school at a very young age, much to my parents' dismay, because I was very bright at school and they saw a lot of potential. But I was fiercely independent and I really wanted to get out there, earn money, be around people. So I was like a high school dropout and I went and I did a trade which was a hairdressing apprenticeship at the time. I loved working with people. That was really my driver, and so I did that for almost 10 years actually. Wow, ok. And that is where I really learned my people skills, because every 45 minutes you've got a different person in the chair. So I learned how to converse with old people, young people of different cultures to me, and I treated it as a learning opportunity. I treated it as an opportunity to ask questions, be curious about people and yeah, so that's where it all started out. But of course it didn't stop there because I like to go for things, so I kept changing it up. Ok, yeah, I quickly got involved in the business side of the operational side of the salon and I also got involved in the educational side of the salon. So I became a teacher of hairdressing, I became the salon manager and that was where I crossed over into the business world. Eventually, I basically took all of those skills and decided it was important to have an education. I went back, I finished school at nighttime while I was working and managing the salon, and I went and did some business studies at university. I simultaneously travelled the world. So I had this insatiable curiosity for learning, for different cultures, for people. So I was really following my interest. That was, it was not an intentional I'm going to do this in my career. It was really following my interest and reinventing myself along the way, which is why I say I'm the queen of reinvention.

Speaker 1: 5:16

I love that right Because you said not traditional at the start, but that's how you've always been, from the time you started working. Almost you didn't say I'm going to set out to do this study, this study I'd say finance and go into finance career. Then do all the things that I've seen finance people do Exactly, followed your interest, but you were picking up skills along the way. Exactly, and I think what I've sensed from the start is the interest in people. So whatever you did, there's very strong people element to it, whether it's traveling or teaching or doing the sales side of it.

Speaker 2: 5:51

Absolutely. It was an interest in people and an interest in learning. I've really carved out a career where I get the best of those both worlds, where I get to work quite deeply with people and I also get to keep evolving my own learning through that process, which is really interesting because now, as an executive coach, I can look back and see how those very early years really did shape who I've become today. And then, of course, moving into the corporate world and moving into the NGO world. In between, moving to the other side of the world and living and working in different countries gave me opportunities to step into new domains and keep building on those skills, which brings me to your time in the Middle East.

Speaker 1: 6:33

You spent some time here. How was that journey for you as you move from Australia over to Dubai? It was the best between me.

Speaker 2: 6:41

We spent 17 years in Dubai. It's the adventurous side of me. I encouraged my husband to move across because the city was booming, it was a big time for construction and he's a civil engineer. So we decided to move across and take up those opportunities. So that was when I got involved heavily in the learning and development side of things. I had been in a sales role previously in Australia and I recognised that I was very good at sales. But it wasn't because I was a good sales person per se, it was because I was a good educator. It was because I was good at asking the right questions, really developing that rapport with the customer. So at the same time I went off and got some qualifications so that I could formalise that learning side of me that was so prominent. And then when I came to Dubai I got much more involved in the learning and development world.

Speaker 1: 7:37

And you made some moves through your career. Right, I know you worked with an NGO. You went on and did more things after that. How did you decide to make these different moves? What, maybe? What was the trigger for those switches that you made through your career?

Speaker 2: 7:51

Yeah, good question. I think moving into the NGO world was a very intentional thing. It was all about impact. So as I have progressed throughout my career, I've been much more intentional about what are my skills and how can I make the most impact with those skills. Okay, and so that was where I wanted to really work for more of a cause and make a difference with those skills. So I knew that I was good at developing people. I knew that I could make a difference in that world. Yeah, the social impact piece started to interest me more and more as I progressed in my career.

Speaker 1: 8:31

And again, you're going by what interests you at the time, and I think you're also letting passion lead you a little bit as you went through your career right. Maybe let me ask you this, Simone then, as you were figuring out what you were passionate about, you're looking for opportunity. How did you leverage your network? How did that happen for you? Obviously, you moved to Dubai. Can you tell us about how you went about building your network and probably leveraging that to create opportunities for yourself?

Speaker 2: 8:59

Yeah, there was a lot of opportunities through network. I don't know that I was very intentional earlier in my career about leveraging the network. It happened more organically. I think that awareness around the leverage and really being conscious about building your network does come at a slightly later stage in our careers, but definitely I got opportunities through the network and I would say every opportunity that I've ever had has come about from that door opener. Shall we say yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 9:29

And I think for me you were very interested in the learning and development piece of it. When did Simone decide that I'm going to stop looking for opportunities to grow career-wise, maybe in the corporate, very traditional corporate sense of the world, and I'm going to now start something on my own? What led you there? Maybe walk us through a bit through the journey, because a lot of the guests that I've had on the show have been have risen through their ranks in the corporate world. So whenever I meet somebody who's been brave enough to let go of that and start something on her own, I'm very curious what led to that point? Was there a lot of self-talk involved? How did you actually get into it and get started?

Speaker 2: 10:13

Another great question. I was part of the senior leadership team at the time and we were doing a lot of our own leadership development for the senior leadership team. So we were going through 360 assessments. We were being assigned an executive coach to help with our career development and it was through that process that I really uncovered my truth. I would say I really started to understand much more about what my strengths were and what energised me at work. I had reached a point in my career where I was very stressed. I had a lot of responsibility in my senior leadership role to bring in funds, so it was like a sales role, but in reverse, where you're asking for money. So it was very high pressure and I wasn't handling the pressure very well. So I was responding to that by working harder and harder and harder, trying to prove to myself and prove to everybody around me that I could do it. And that was when I went through these leadership development interventions and I had a really big breakthrough. I really realised that I was in the wrong job, that having that level of pressure was not serving me and that it wasn't leveraging my strengths. So I decided to take that leap of faith and really focus on my strengths. When you do these 360 leadership assessments, there's all of these different dimensions and different behaviours and criterias that you're assessed against, and my mentoring and developing other people was off the charts from everybody that rated me, which you probably knew about, but it's always good to see it in black and white as well.

Speaker 1: 11:49

Right it was exactly that.

Speaker 2: 11:50

It was looking at it in black and white and saying, wow, this is such a strong point in me and of course I'd always had it in my career, but I had never formalised it to that extent and, of course, in the remit of my job role at the time, it was good to have it as a strength, but it meant that there was deficits in other areas of my leadership. So I decided, OK, let me concentrate in the latter years of my life on what I'm truly good at and how I can create the most impact and I get such great satisfaction out of helping others succeed, and I was always that person in the workplace. People would come to me to have those conversations, so I started connecting the dots for myself. It was a really big shift for me.

Speaker 1: 12:34

I'm good at this, I'm happy doing it, so why not just do it 100%, absolutely?

Speaker 2: 12:39

And then from the entrepreneurial side, I had that recognition that, well, I am a hard worker, I'm incredibly self-disciplined, self-motivated. So I recognise that I had all those attributes to make a business work. I thought, if I'm going to work this hard, I'm going to be successful. I had this moment of really, really big revelation. I would say.

Speaker 1: 13:00

I'm going to come back to that, because I remember a story that you shared from early this week when I was at your how Women Rise sessions. I'm going to come back to that and ask you to share that story if you're OK to do it, but tell us a little bit about so. You went through some challenges and you're now an executive coach. I'm sure a lot of your personal experiences influence how you're coaching and guiding people that come to you, and this is something I just want to share with everybody. When do you think is a good time for somebody to seek a coach? I think that's helpful for the audience to know. It's not something that a lot of people go for, but it would be good learning for people to understand hey, when do they need a coach, right, and what should they be looking for when they try to go find a coach for themselves?

Speaker 2: 13:48

Yeah, I call it the niggle. It's like a little. There's a sense that they're not reaching their full potential. There's a sense that they want more, they want something different. Perhaps they're not content, or they just are ambitious and they feel like they're not moving in the right direction. So it's usually from a place of questioning. They're starting to ask themselves questions that they can't necessarily answer. So quite often there's a feeling of stuckness when people come to a coach. But I think the dynamic around having a coach is really changing. There used to be a stigma with having a coach. It used to be a very remedial thing that the coach was brought in to fix some sort of problem. Yes, and slowly. That's changing and I'm pleased to see that change because that is not the narrative we want around coaching. And that's certainly not the narrative that an organisation should take. An organisation should really provide coaches so that people are performing at their best and people are receiving the support that they need to be able to perform at their best. And, especially when an external coach comes in, you're really providing a level of impartiality that people don't get within the organisation and that's very powerful. So, yeah, I think it's very nuanced in terms of there's no one answer to that question.

Speaker 1: 15:12

At the same time, like the niggle, so remember, there is that niggle in your head. Time to start thinking about it and go do some homework.

Speaker 2: 15:22

Because we can only do so much thinking alone. We all have a one dimensional story that we tell ourselves, and we are somewhat stuck in our own story, and so working with a coach helps you to go much deeper and it helps you to widen yourself awareness and tap into those blind spots that we can't see for ourselves. So it's a very powerful process and I love it because it's deep, it's transformational, and some of the other learning and development initiatives can be more surface level and they're not. So it's that depth of transformation that I find very appealing and, yeah, it's incredible.

Speaker 1: 16:02

I like that. You said it's not about changing or correcting something right, it's not. Something is wrong or broken. You need to go fix it. So go find yourself a coach. I think what I'm getting from what you're saying is hey, how do you continue to evolve and, probably, how do you get to the best version of yourself?

Speaker 2: 16:17

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 16:18

What a good coach would help you.

Speaker 2: 16:21

Absolutely. Find out, yeah, and helping you see other perspectives, so that we're not stuck in that same narrative that we are in day to day. Yeah, and having time to think is incredibly important, especially for leaders.

Speaker 1: 16:33

Very easily said, but we take so little time to do it, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 16:37

Yeah, it's the pace through which we work in organizations, and so working with a coach is like a gift to yourself in terms of having some time to think, having that thinking partner, and it's only when we carve out that space for ourselves that new things can emerge. Otherwise, we're on that daily treadmill just going in doing the same things that we've always done and there's no space for new ideas, innovation, all of these things that we talk about in the workplace, they first have to be applied to ourselves, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 17:11

It was on a course last year and I had this thing. That surprised me at the time, but when I thought about it it seemed to make sense. As you go higher and higher in the organization, you'll get much less feedback from people around you, and that kind of made me think that is, as you're going higher, you really need somebody to help you, like you said, with those identify, those blind spots.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Absolutely and work on them.

Speaker 1: 17:34

It's a continuous work, work in progress. Yeah, you're 100% right because you're the boss now, so people tell you yes, you won't sit here.

Speaker 2: 17:41

People tell you what you want to hear. Yes, people bow to what you want to get done. It's a different level. I call it the support crew, and we need multiple players in our support crew, especially as we progress to senior leadership, and leadership requires a different skill set to what we had in our earlier careers. Drawing that line in the sand and reevaluating is the way that I'm currently working. Other behaviors that I'm demonstrating, still relevant for the role that I'm in now and for what I want in my future. Quite often it's not. It's, like you said, a natural evolutionary process, but it's so much more powerful if we do that with somebody who can hold us accountable, can challenge us, can really connect the dots for us.

Speaker 1: 18:21

I love that, I really love that. And looking at you, simone, as I share this with all my guests, right, you always see this image of this woman. She's doing great. You have your own coaching firm, consulting firm, right, and you're doing. You did a couple of workshops just this week alone, right In Dubai. I always want to go back and listen, to talk, tell us about maybe a setback that you went through Professionally, right, and I think for me, what is a huge learning moment all the time is how did you Walk back from that cliff? Yeah, pull yourself out of that depth and keep going again. Can you share maybe an episode from your experience? That would really help inspire for sure.

Speaker 2: 19:08

Yeah, firstly, I would say that setbacks are necessary. I think that the people that have those setbacks are the ones that grow the most and quite often they're the ones that are challenging themselves. They're the ones that are putting themselves out there and pushing those boundaries so that they do have those setbacks. I think my biggest example of a setbacks was when I made that career shift and I was in the point where I recognized I was in the wrong job and I recognized that I wasn't handling the pressure of that role very well and I was putting unnecessary stress on my own shoulders and on on my team's shoulders and I really had a Burnout at that time. I responded to that, like I said, by working harder and harder and and myself out totally. So I knew that I needed to change something and I stepped away from that and. I remember Just creating space for myself. Again, following my interest, I started learning, started upskilling, started volunteering. I think the thing that helped me the most was just being Sitting. I remember sitting on the floor with my children at the time and watching them play Lego and interacting with them, so really shifting up my world and Getting inspiration from other areas that I hadn't had time to explore and that really helped me to pivot. So I think that's really necessary when we're going through some sort of personal transformation. We need to create that space for ourselves. Right, have that time to think and to reset. Yeah, very important.

Speaker 1: 20:42

I would. You said about just being, because you're always trying to do stuff right. I really like that about just being can generate so many ideas as well.

Speaker 2: 20:51

Absolutely yeah and if you've come from a place where it's been hectic and you've been on that daily treadmill of just go, you are depleted and so there's this restoration phase that you need to go through to Renew and go again in a slightly different direction. So, yeah, very important that we balance our doing with our being, and in times when it's been very intense, that balance might take some time. So I was at a point where I recognized having a week off wasn't going to cut it for me. Having a holiday Wasn't going to cut it for me, it was a big change that I needed something to be grease it moment.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Yeah, and then didn't you feel as well. That also helped you personally, right? A happier I always feel a happier Sunila makes a happier family as well.

Speaker 2: 21:39

Definitely, it's all about that, it's all about that, because in order to lead whether it's a business, whether it's a team, whether it's a family we need to be able to lead ourselves, yes, and so if our self is not in good shape, then put that oxygen mask on first. And that's really very important, and in all the leaders I work with now from an executive coaching standpoint, that's often the issue. The issue is that they just have not got the time to really Reconnect with themselves in order to lead themselves effectively.

Speaker 1: 22:16

First, I know we're talking about resetting and taking that time out, so this question might be a bit counterintuitive. I'm always curious what's next? Where is this journey going to take you next?

Speaker 2: 22:31

Yeah, I've been very much working in the women in leadership space in the last few years. That's been one of our projects with how women rise and the workshop that we have at the ameliorate group, and I think through that process of working with women I've come to recognize that there's a Return to humanity in the way that we lead and I think that's what's attracted me to working with female leaders, because I see a more Kind of compassionate leadership style in the way that they show up in the world. So that's Creating questions. I'm getting curious again and I'm thinking what does that mean for next phase? I think that there's something there in terms of personal transformation. I'm really noticing a shift in the post COVID era where there needs to be a return to humanity in the way that we lead.

Speaker 1: 23:26

Right and.

Speaker 2: 23:27

I want to create something that really speaks to that. So I'm not sure exactly what it looks like yet, but there's definitely something new, something Reinventing in me again, where I'm following my interests and I'm connecting those dots and, yeah, I think the future of work looks very different to the pre-COVID version of work right and I think that Transformation is taking place everywhere in business, and leaders are expected to lead these transformations right, and yet the personal transformation Isn't at the same pace. So, again, in order to be those trailblazers, be those game changes, I think leaders need to give them self-permission to evolve, and so there's something there around Holding a space for them to be able to do that, and I think it's bringing people together is very powerful as well. So in the executive coaching space, we're doing a lot of one-on-one work and that's very transformative, but there's also a lot of value in bringing people together and having different perspectives. Yeah, I'm learning from each other. So the how women rise program we've structured it that way so that groups of women can come together and share their experience, have dialogue around the common challenges. So I think that model of learning is extremely powerful and I'd like to do more with that, and it's not necessarily only for women. It's for a more diverse and, yeah, a return to humanity in the way that we lead.

Speaker 1: 25:00

I love that and the session that we had, the workshop that we had earlier Just bringing people together and the different perspective, different experiences I thought was so powerful, not just in terms of learning, but the connections you were able to build with each other, helping each other out almost right, somebody sharing with me and helping me think of how to do things differently by sharing her experience and vice versa. I love the concept of just bringing people from, say, even different backgrounds, different organizations and different experiences together. I'm going to go back. You shared the story earlier this week. It was about getting started on the how Women Rise workshop and working with the author, sally Huggison. I really like it if you could share that story because I think there's a really good learning there and I just love how your persistence paid off at the end. So if you don't mind sharing that, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 25:56

Yeah. So I take you back to a time when I was with my business partner, melissa. We were in the early days of shaping our offerings through the Ameliorate Group and we had this great idea to turn a book into a learning program, and there was a particular book called how Women Rise. It was released in 2018. And at the time, I was obsessed I'm still obsessed with reading and gathering resources and publications that I can recommend to the people that I'm coaching, and what I noticed was when I recommended how Women Rise, it always landed with the person that I was coaching it. Always they were like wow, this book is written for me. It describes all the behaviors that. So there was a really strong resonance, a really strong connection with the content of the book. We noticed, melissa and I, here in Dubai, that Sally Huggison, who was the author, co-author, together with Marshall Goldsmith from New York, was coming to Dubai for a Diversion and Inclusion workshop. We signed up for that workshop with the pure intent of learning from her and securing a meeting with her, because we wanted to make this proposal that we would turn your book into a workshop and scale it all over the world. We did secure the meeting with Sally and we met her for breakfast the next day. We laid out our big proposal of what we'd like to do with her book and she told us thank you very much, ladies. However, I'm about to go on this journey with another company in the US and she turned us down basically. So we were a bit not so happy. But she said I've written other books, perhaps you could do something with one of my other publications. So we said, okay, we'll have a look, we'll stay in touch. And we did. We created some content, we shared it with her, we kept in touch and basically we didn't take no for an answer. So we call it my stalking moment. We kept just chipping away and eventually she came back and said you know what I really like, what you've done, let's go for it. So yeah, it's a great story of sometimes the first response is not the only response. Yes, and I think that's possibly one of my strengths in business, is that I have that resilience. I have that discipline to make dreams come true. Really, yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:19

I love that story because there's so many times we have an idea yeah, no, that's, it's too far, not going to happen. But would that person talk to me? What's in it for them? What do I have that I could offer them? Push it, they come to me.

Speaker 2: 28:32

Exactly, yeah, we get deflected very easily as human beings and I think I built that muscle and that skill when I was the head of fundraising and we would get rejected quite often. So you had to show up again and reinvent and be creative and reposition and try in a different way, and sometimes you would get six or seven times knocked back and the eighth time was a yes. So that resilience and that, yeah, I think the sales world, the fundraising world, taught me that skill and I think in business you need to have a certain level of strategic patience.

Speaker 1: 29:07

I like that. I'm going to copy that.

Speaker 2: 29:08

Yeah, strategic patience is very important because it takes time and I'm not necessarily the most patient person, but I have trained myself over the years to become more patient.

Speaker 1: 29:21

Because I always believe whatever is meant to happen will happen right.

Speaker 2: 29:26

I do as well.

Speaker 1: 29:27

And I think that's what the strategic patience is about. Maybe, if the timing is not right, it's good.

Speaker 2: 29:34

That's right. Yeah, and there's a level of kind of trusting yourself and knowing intuitively that you're on the right path, but perhaps you need to adjust your path. Yes, absolutely, that's what I don't necessarily mean. It's like we said earlier, setbacks are part of any evolutionary process.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Yes, so we have to develop our ability to appreciate those setbacks and sit in the discomfort of what they're trying to teach us and take what has worked from that setback and go again, and I love that story because one what I learned from it was when you have an idea, have a dream, go for it and then don't take the first no as the final answer. Yes, I also like that when she gave you another option, you didn't just say, no, it's just this or nothing. Absolutely Just stay open-minded and you're flexible. Just say, okay, we'll go look at the other books and see what we can come up with. So that was good as well. It's not with this or nothing, absolutely Flexibility. And then the persistence and the other thing I would also add to that is different perspectives, right?

Speaker 2: 30:34

So I didn't come up with those ideas alone. I had my business partner, mel, with me, so we were bouncing ideas off each other, and I think when we try and operate in isolation without our support crew, that is when we get deflected. So I think there's something about sharing our challenges, voicing our concerns, redesigning with other people, not alone, because we only have so many ideas alone, and I think our reality and our possibilities can expand when we co-create. Very important, yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:11

I think that is very true. Sometimes we try to just go it alone, maybe because we're scared to share ideas or scared to share a lot. So we try to just go it alone. We're just bringing other people into your journey. Making them part of your journey can be so much more uplifting and you don't just get defeated with every know that you're here. So I really like that.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Absolutely yes, and that's why I encourage, and that's why I love podcasts and platforms where there's an opportunity for people to share their story, because there's always connections that are built through those sharing of stories and sharing of experiences, and then that turns on like a light bulb moment for somebody else and it's a very human connection process.

Speaker 1: 31:53

Yes, you relate, but you also get inspired. So that's why I love podcasts and I love listening to my guests as well. On unlimited seating, simone, I've enjoyed going through your journey right and I know there's a lot more coming. A closing question that I ask all my guests and I love hearing the answer. If you were to summarize, say you're going to write a book tomorrow or you're going to put out a song, what would be the title or your song title? That's a great question.

Speaker 2: 32:27

I'm not going to go with an original song title or an original book title at this, but I'll look to what inspires me as a song, because I think if I was to write a song or write a book, the title would come last. Actually, as you go through the yes, exactly, but there's a song by Fleetwood Mac which is a really famous rock song from way back when, which is Go your Own Way, and I think that it's a very powerful song and what I love about it is it crosses across age groups and across. You can put that song on in a room and everybody will respond to it in a positive way. So I love that connectivity again of the diverse age groups and gender and culture and it's a positive feeling song. But the lyrics in terms of Go your Own Way so powerful Because I think there is no one way and the more we can unlock what it is that truly drives you as an individual. That is where the magic and that is why I love coaching, because that's the process that it takes people on. It's not telling somebody what to do in a prescriptive manner. It's helping people decide what works for me Right and so going your own way. People, human beings, can't be told what to do.

Speaker 1: 33:44

They literally cannot.

Speaker 2: 33:46

We need to unlock that personal driver Right and match that with what career success looks like to every single individual. And I think in leadership that is just so important because we're not spending time, we're not spending enough time in that human space, and so, yeah, it's something about going your own way, being human, leading yourself, all of these kind of themes that are very emergent for me.

Speaker 1: 34:14

Love it and that would also be the theme for the book as well. Definitely it's capturing your journey, which I think really ties in with how we started out right Picking your interest, your passion, no conventional, so-called conventional route for you.

Speaker 2: 34:28

No conventional route and a return to humanity, because I think the pace is so fast the post-COVID era there's so much pressure. We really need to go back to the basics and connect with each other on the very human level in the workplace, and that's where we're going to unlock performance for individuals and we're going to go through massive changes in the future of work. People will be losing their jobs. People will be needing to reinvent themselves and reinvent the way they're operating in order to sustain and grow. It's going to be a really challenging time ahead of us, I think, at the work. Agree, agree.

Speaker 1: 35:05

Love it, simone. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed our conversation and again thank you for being the first guest to join me in person.

Speaker 2: 35:14

It's been fabulous, it was fun.

Speaker 1: 35:17

I think it's been really great. So thanks again for your time and I'm wishing you all the best for the rest of your time here and for everything that's coming ahead for Simone, for the Ameliorate Group and for all the big things that you want to do to create big impact in the world. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 35:33

Thank you, sunay Larratt. It's been an absolute pleasure to be here. Take care.